My good friend (JG) posted this quote on her Facebook page yesterday, I assume someone said it to her or her girlfriend. The ensuing argument is funny if viewed from the right angle. If viewed from any other angle it’s terrifying people like this are still out there (I’ve left in any typos/bad grammar)
JG’s status:
“There’s nothing wrong with being gay. I have plenty of friends that are going to hell.”
EF: For being gay or for…other crimes against the dear lord our dog?
JG: All kinds of weird and wonderful sins! Which is undoubtedly going to make for MUCH better conversation down there!
Anna Madeleine: A girl I once knew had been so indoctrinated by an evangelical church that at the age of 18 she told me in detail what Hell was like and explained to me why I was going there. She was crying throughout. I remember this whenever I envy anyone for their strong faith. I remember why my life is better than hers, for I am free.
JG: Have had the exact same conversation on more than one occasion. I can still appreciate the value of strong faith, but certainly not in a doctrine that condones the idea of Hell for ALL who have not accepted it. Being in Asia, Thailand specifically I am surrounded by ‘idol worship’ which is considered evil in the MOST mainstream of religions. You don’t need to be a genius by any means to recognise the irony in that considering what Thai people are like.
JG: viva la freedom
XH: Hhahhahha
CO: I’m a christian. I 100 percent believe. But if someone’s judging or condemning people for what they are or what they choose, that’s the first nonchristian thing they’re doing, it’s all about love and acceptance ;) X
JG: That is so refreshing to hear. Couldn’t agree with you more!
JW: We are all loved by God to the point of Him taking on human flesh and dying at our hands. If we believe in God yet think that this sort of history-shattering and drastic act of love and self-sacrifice was not necessary, then we need to look deem within ourselves once more.
JG: Your God says I am going to hell.
JG: I have looked deep within myself, for years. And I know that is not the truth. (Or at the very least, MY truth.) Hi by the way :)
JW: I know how flawed I am so in no way are my comments here out of a place of judgement or condemnation. All I’m saying is that before we even debate about what ‘my God says’ or whether we agree with Christianity on issues like homosexuality or not, we need to acknowledge that there’s not only darkness in the world, but also within us. Every spiritual tradition that has ever existed has acknowledged the existence of this ‘darkness’. Some forms of spirituality have dealt with it through animal (or even human) sacrifice, but today most people deal with it by believing that it somehow comes out in the wash in the course of life, or through karma or by some similar means. The fundamental belief of Christianity, however, is that God took on this darkness Himself.
He was born as a human and allowed the darkness to fully overcome Him by undertaking a human death at our hands, because being eternal (and eternally Good), He alone could exhaust and annihilate the power it has over us and the rest of His creation. [Christians often speak about Jesus being ‘within’ them, and it often sounds lame. This is because many Christians don’t realise that the reason why Jesus is within them is because they have darkness that he came to destroy within them. Unfortunately the failure to recognize this results in a lot of Christian self-righteousness, which I myself am often guilty of.]
Jesus said a lot of people are going to hell (“Wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter.”) Now I’m not at all saying that you personally are on your way to hell, but I am saying that just because we don’t like the sound of something doesn’t mean we should reject it. If someone were to tell me that a thief is going to break into my house tonight, I wouldn’t just ignore them because I don’t like the idea of being robbed. If I were to ignore their warning it would only be because I had a principled way of judging their warning to be false. I’m not saying that you don’t have a well thought out reason for disregarding the Christian teaching on homosexuality, but the tone and sarcasm of your original status (as well as most of the following comments) don’t display it. Other comments here about being happier than Christians are besides the point: of course the man would be happier if he chose not to believe that he would be robbed, but his happiness has absolutely no bearing on whether or not he will be robbed! [Your last comment to me, however, does indicate that you do have a more principled reason for rejecting the Christian beliefs you are joking about, so I’ll take you at your word and not say anything more!]
But as soon as we speak of truth as though there are different, sometimes opposite truths for different people (‘YOUR truth’ or ‘MY truth’), we’ve actually abandoned the whole concept of truth altogether. For truth to be truth it has to exist above and beyond our own personal preferences or inclinations, otherwise all we’re dealing with are our own subjective tastes, which can hardly be called ‘truth’. This leaves us, especially in the area of morals, with no way to object to the behaviour of another, no matter how evil ‘MY’ truth regards such behaviour, whether it be racism, lying or even murder. To use an example from human sexuality, in North America psychiatrists are already following this line of thinking to its logical conclusions, arguing that because pedophilia isn’t chosen by people who suffer from it, we should accept it in the same way we do homosexuality (afterall, there are many ways in which pedophiles can satisfy their desires without actually harming people). Unless our morality is grounded in something more universal that ‘MY truth’ we are in a mess.
Anyway, hope you don’t mind me writing essays on your wall! I hope you have a great 2012!
LR: tl;dr
BS: Hello, I was just going to say that for love to be legitimate there has to be choice and for choice to be legit there have to be choices - hell as a choice does not negate love but stands as one of the choices - choice legitimizes love - the true power and pleasure of it comes by choosing it - hell is sim
Hell is simply where love is no longer chosen - eternity is like a magnifying glass that exemplifies the choice made in the constraints of time - God is love - when u don’t choose him in earth there is partial consequence but when that choice carries into eternity it becomes all that not choosing love is. Jesus is not sending anyone to hell - they are choosing it - it’s not that His love is skewed - its that His love is demanding - it says choose Me - therein lies its power - when u choose Him/love it is true…
EF: I like C’s god more. He’s nice :) Sorry J, I didn’t mean to spark this up…. :( Has anyone considered that Rowan Atkinsons skit “the devil” might be the most accurate? Just a thought….
Anna Madeleine: Neither Quakers, Sikhs nor Buddhists believe in ‘darkness’ within people. In fact the opposite, they’re based on the belief that people are born good. I’m not sure about Hinduism, Mauri or Native Americans…. So when you say “every spiritual tradition that has ever existed has acknowledged the existence of this ‘darkness’.” it is simply not true.
EF: Christianity also believes that children are born good too
HB: i don’t know about all this…but i know i would follow JG into hell and back!
Anna Madeleine: Between consenting adults, everyone in the world deserves to love and be loved, whatever form that takes. Everyone in the world deserves for this love not to be condemned by others and for them to live free from judgement and fear. I will not apologise for having love in my life and nobody else should. Recommended reading: His Dark Materials by Phillip Pullman.
JW: Whether they call it sin, darkness or lack of enlightenment/light or whatever, they all agree on some type of falleness that needs to be overcome. Most religion affirm the inherent goodness of humanity as the reason there needs to be such overcoming in the first place, including Christianity (except perhaps some smaller sects).
Anna Madeleine: I also don’t understand the reference to ‘sin’ or ‘darkness’ within this context in the first place. To love, including queer love is not a darkness and is not morally questionable nor should be compared to things that are. JG, people’s sexualities are not something to be overcome, have faith in love little one xx
JG: Woah. Just seen all this but am on my shitty mobile and it’s a feat to read. Will ‘enlighten’ myself in the morning when I have a PC in front of me and a strong cup of coffee. I do however, after a skim through it all find more of my own personal truth in Anna’s statements. Have a good night dudes and dudettes. Much love to all. P.S. Anna dear, not suggesting one should EVER consider ones own sexuality something to ‘overcome’ … Night x
Anna Madeleine: Here’s a great example of how *some* modern Christians behave: http://freethoughtblogs.com/blaghag/2012/01/that-christian-compassion/
JW: Anna, perhaps my reference to ‘darkness’ and sin is a bit out of context, although I didn’t originally mention it in reference to human sexuality. Feel free to read my main comment here again. That said, JG’s original status does indirectly refer to the Christian belief that homosexuality is a sin and a result of our rebellion against God and the way He has made us, for which there’ll be judgement. I’m not saying that to judge anyone, I’m just stating what you, JG and everyone else know to be the Christian position on homosexuality.
Talking about the modern world and how what one believes seems to affect behaviour, did you know that 180 million people have been killed at the hands of atheist dictators (Mao, Stalin etc) in the past century? For comparison’s sake, the Crusades, which lasted 200 years, resulted in the death of 3 million people, and the Spanish Inquisition, which lasted 300 years, had a maximum death toll of 5000. That link you posted is very sad indeed, but it is weak as an argument against Christianity (if that’s why you’re posting it).
Anna Madeleine: The idea that an omnipotent being is petty enough to care about humans’ sex lives would be hilarious were it not the source of so much misery.
Anna Madeleine: The entire American war policy since the founding fathers is enacted “in the name of God”. How many people have they slaughtered? In South Africa the native people were enslaved and slaughtered with the support of the church and with the Christian faith as a foundation.
Anna Madeleine: And no, I was not posting it as an argument against Christianity. I posted it as an example of the actions of *some* modern Christians.
JW: Neither the ‘entire American war policy’ nor apartheid has killed nearly as many people as atheist states of the 20th century. Religion is a powerful motivator, and thus is often invoked in wartime, but the real reasons most wars have been fought have nothing to do with it.
God cares about our sex lives because He designed sex to be the sacred way in which He brings new souls into existence. And because He loves us and cares about everything we do.
Anna Madeleine: Female circumcision is carried out “in the name of God”. At what point is that the moral high-ground? To base sexual morality on a book that has 613 commandments and not one against rape, seems at best ridiculous, at worst horrific. People like me (with queer demons inside them, or darkness and sin as you call them) are violently abused and killed around the world on a daily basis. How is that God’s will?
JW: It’s not God’s will. It’s people using the name of God to deceptively invoke immoral behaviour among ignorant people for their personal benefit. Lots of wars are carried out in the name of gaining money and possessions. Are we to believe that getting wealthy is evil? Or that money doesn’t exist?!
You’re not seriously trying to say that the Bible condones rape, are you? Jesus commanded his followers to not even look at a woman lustfully. This definitely rules out rape. Modern biology is now showing that the genetic make up of the sexuality of some men makes them more likely to be rapists (and others pedophiles). Do these men need to overcome their sexuality, even though they had no choice in it? Earlier you wrote that “people’s sexuality’s are not something that need to be overcome.”
It is not God’s will that anyone be abused or killed. There is no moral high-ground here. The point I’ve been trying to make is that people are evil regardless of whether they’re believers or not. That atheist dictators enforce the rape and murder of millions or that Christians engage in hate speech or go to war unjustly or mutilate or rape women all just points to the fact that we need healing, somehow. The terrible things you have described are proof of the ‘darkness’ I was referring to earlier (which, I repeat, wasn’t in reference to any particular type of behaviour).
Anna Madeleine:So, do you or do you not believe that being queer is a sin? Therefore, are we all going to hell? If genetics have proven as you state that I am born this way, then there is nothing I can do to change it, whether I turn to God or not. Therefore despite avoiding stating it, you are inferring that I am going to hell. Therefore, your argument has been entirely in support of whomever said the quoted words.
