Following on from yesterday’s post about the conversation on a friend’s Facebook wall:

JW: I don’t think you have fully understood what my argument is. As a Christian, I can’t tell who goes to hell or not. What my faith does tell me is that people living in serious, unrepentant sin will face eternal consequences, and that homosexual acts are serious sin.

Homosexuality isn’t the same thing as rape or pedophilia, don’t get me wrong, but if we thin that it is immoral for people with a natural, genetic inclination towards either of those two disgusting things to act upon them, then, although we might have other ways of justifying homosexual acts, one cannot justify homosexuality being moral by appealing to being born homosexual.

It’s also worth noting that traditionally Christianity doesn’t see homosexual desires themselves to be wrong, but rather the fulfilment of those desires through homosexual acts. The reason for this is because in traditional Christian ethics the basic purpose of something acts as a limit on it in the sense that whenever our use of any process or thing disrupts the very purpose for which that process or thing is primarily intended, there is at least a potential moral problem present. So when we indulge in the pleasure of eating without also accepting the most fundamental purpose of eating—nourishment—by vomiting our food back up, we are being gluttonous and immoral. The basic purpose of our sexual organs is to procreate. While there is nothing wrong with the pleasure sex gives us (like the pleasure of eating), if we deliberately seek such sexual pleasure apart from being open to the primary purpose of our sexual organs—to procreate—we are acting immorally. Therefore homosexual acts (not homosexual desires), according to Christian ethics, which are based on the fundamental and natural purposes of things, are wrong. Obviously most churches (except the Catholic Church) reject this reasoning because it also rules out artificial contraception, choosing rather to base their ethics on a fundamental reading of the Bible in order to condemn homosexual behaviour.

The purpose of me commenting here wasn’t to tell homosexual people that they’re going to hell. It’s a sensitive issue and perhaps I didn’t approach it as well as I should have, but what I was trying to say is that just because you don’t like the idea of hell—and perhaps even feel at liberty to ridicule it, as the original status suggests—doesn’t mean you have a principled way of arguing against people with different views to you. In other words, saying “But your god says I’m going to hell” is not an argument against my God or what he says.

I really hope I haven’t offended you with all this talk of hell and judgement. I don’t know you, but I know JG. And although JG and I have been out of touch for many years, I hold her in the same high regard as I did when we were teenagers. I have done things that are way worse than what I consider the immorality of any type of homosexual behaviour to be, and I while I still hold to my beliefs regarding Christianity homosexuality, I do so not because I consider myself better than anyone, so please forgive me if I have been judgemental in any way.

Anna Madeleine: Well, we simply have to agree to disagree. If you believe as you say that God created us, then he also created the physical pleasure we get from good sex. He also created our instincts. My instincts (since I was a child) have been to see everyone as individuals. To love freely. Lovers who are women or men; white, black or asian; people who were (in the Christian belief “all created by God”). Smart, funny, kind, beautiful people who have enriched my life and brought goodness into this world. 

If loving these people fully and by following the instincts that I was born with is a sin, then so be it. I am unclear why or how God would create me this way and then punish me for living my life this way.

I don’t think JG was mocking hell or God when she posted her original status. It reads as if she was quoting something someone said to her.

Your strength of belief that acts of homosexual love are a sin (which is in fact a misinterpretation of the original Bible translations but that’s for someone else to defend) and the ease in which you compare sex between consenting adults with pedophilia do not offend me. They make me sad. Sad that the world still has these views and sad for anyone who is gay within your circle or within your church. They deserve better.

I had been careful not to make this personal as I don’t know you, but I have enjoyed our interesting debate and I’m sure others have enjoyed reading it too!

Best wishes for your life. AMx